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Phoenix TV: Kilgour-Mattas report re-examined

2016-04-27 Source:Phoenix TV

Narrator: A hospital was discredited as a concentration camp for Falun Gong practitioners.

Zhang Xu (spokeman of Sujiatun hospital, which is formally called Liaoning Thrombus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine): It says that our hospital is the concentration camp, housing thousands of Falun Gong practitioners from whom the living body organs have been harvested.

Narrator: A couple of doctors were slanderously accused of removing living organs.

Yu Sanjiang (cerebral surgeon of Sujiatun hospital): I am but an ordinary physician. I'm wondering why they fabricated the stories on me.

Narrator: How did the ridiculous rumor come into being?

Zimo (anchor of phoenix TV): On June 6, 2006, two Canadians, David Kilgour and David Mattas published an independent survey in which the Chinese Communist Party was claimed to remove organs of live Falun Gong practitioners. Its revised version published on January 31, 2007 even shocked the whole world. What is the truth?

David Mattas: We're going to work out the second version. Rather than 18 items of disproof, 25 or 26, even 27 methods are to be used for proof and disproof.

Narrator: David Mattas, a Canadian human rights lawyer. David Kilgour, a former Canada Congressional prosecutor. Two-month investigations gave birth to the so-called report of China harvesting organs alive in July 2006. On publication of its revised version in Jan. 2007, they claimed to have enough evidences that the Chinese government  illegally detained large numbers of Falun Gong practitioners and removed their organs alive for transplantation, the hospital had made huge profits. The report was translated into 9 languages. Two Davids advertise the report loudly in 15 Asian, European and North American countries and on many international occasions, they smear at  China`s organ transplantation system and have made a very bad impact on China.

Mao Qun'an (spokesman of the Ministry of Health of the State): We are very angry. The impact of this report, especially on the public abroad, is very bad and it's beyond the field of organ transplantation technology. It's definitely a premeditated attack towards our country and our government.

Narrator: According to Davids' report, Miss Anne (anonym) said that her husband, a surgeon, had cut the cornea of almost 2,000 dopey Falun Gong practitioners within two years. And other organs of those cornea donators were removed by other physicians, and their bodies were finally burnt. The place they accused is Sujiatun hospital, in the city of Shenyang, Liaoning Province,China.

Narrator: Sujiatun district is located in the south suburb of Shenyang, Liaoning Province, about 20 minutes' drive from the city. There are four hospitals in Sujiatun district where hospitals are comparatively centralized. Certain oversea media have indicted that hospital for several times by mentioning it vaguely as Sujiatun hospital. Related Falun Gong websites show the picture of the accused hospital as Liaoning Thrumbus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine. It is surprised that the hospital condemned of removing living organ of Falun Gong practitioners is actually a special hospital curing cerebral thrombosis. Vice president of the hospital, Zhang Yuqin, happened to work in the clinic when we arrived.

Zimo: The overseas report continuously censures that the physicians of your hospital removing living organs from Falun Gong practitioners. How big is your surgical department?

Zhang Yuqin (Vice president of Liaoning Thrombus Treatment Center of Integrtated Chinese & Western Medicine): The surgical department is simply a small ward and we have a treatment room in addition. We can only supply simple treatment in the treatment room, such as handling simple wound and stopping bleeding.

Zimo: How many surgeons are there in all?

Zhang Yuqin: Just a little more than ten.

Zimo: You told us that your hospital never did the things mentioned in the report. But is your hospital capable of removing living organs? 

Zhang Yuqin: We do not have the ability to remove organs and we have no such equipments either.

Narrator: There are merely 300 beds for patients in this Sujiatun hospital and the maximum capability of the hospital is 600 patients.

Zhang Xu, the spokesman of  Sujiatun hospital, considers that the so-called Sujiatun concentration camp for Falun Gong practitioner  is a sheer nonsense.

Zhang Xu (spokesman of Sujiatun hospital): Every single sentence is fabricated. Our hospital was founded in 1988 and before that the place was a vegetable garden, so there are many residents living around it. We have been here since the hospital was founded. It situates right in the residential area with many traffic roads nearby, and takes in large amount of domestic and foreign patients everyday. If what the report says is true, then the two Canadians would have no chance to be the first to report the event, since the whole nation at least the staff of our hospital like us would know it first. Therefore, the so-called event is a sheer nonsense.

Narrator: This is the inpatient department of the Sujiatun hospital. Before two Davids' report, the website of Falun Gong Minghui.org pointed out that this hospital hided more than 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners and 2,000 of them were set on fire after being removed living organs. The website even published the cinerator, which was actually the boiler room of the hospital.

Zimo: How long have you been working here?

Worker (in the boiler room): I came to work in the boiler room since 1991, so 16 years in all.

Zimo: What's your daily work?

Worker: This is a two-ton boiler. We mainly manufacture pharmaceutical preparation of Chinese and western medicine, supply hot water for the laundry and steam for the kitchen and dining-room, and so on.

Zimo: Around the year 2003, did you sense anything abnormal in this boiler room?

Worker: Nothing abnormal.

Zimo: For exemple,was there any other thing being burnt?

Worker: Definitely no.

Narrator: This is merely an ordinary boiler room. There are glass windows both in front and back of the room and the residential area is about only ten meters away. So a resident could see the activity clearly through the glass windows of the boiler room just from his house. Besides, the boiler room has only two doors connecting the outside.

Zhang Xu: I don't know whether you have noticed or not the picture on Minghui.org which was actually shot from the nearby residential area. The residential building is right above the boiler room, so the residents could see anything in the room when they dry their clothes in the sun. Under such a circumstance, I don't know how to keep any secret.

Narrator: According to common sense, if Sujiatun hospital indeed hided more than 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, then how to solve the problem of their daily lives?

Zimo: So we want to know during that period, did you receive any assignment to supply logistical support to such a large number of people?

Qi Qide (Section chief of adminstration of Sujiatun hospital) : I have been working here ever since the hospital was founded. The regular supply of this hospital is to provide water, electricity, heating, oxygen, laundry and meal, and nothing else.

Zimo: Suppose there are 6,000 people staying in your hospital, what kind of preparation work do you have to support the logistics? How much money and how many people are needed to serve them?

Qi Qide: Provided that there are 6,000 people, first of all we have to ensure the accommodation. But we do not have enough rooms for so many people to stay in our hospital. Besides, we need at least 5,000 to 6,000 people to serve them. We only have 600 staff in our hospital, then where can we get so many workers serving them?

Narrator: After the scandal of Sujiatun hospital hiding Falun Gong practitioner appearing in Epoch Times, the working personnel of American Consulate-General in Shenyang pretending to be a patient came to Sujiatun hospital to consult the organ removing operation, and failed to dig out any problem.

On March 21, 2006, the Consulate sent Mr. David Kombluth, the consul of Shenyang, to investigate Sujiatun hospital again. The five-people group examined carefully the sickroom, office building, medical equipment and even the utility room storing sundries, yet failed to find anything abnormal.

Zimo: How long did the American consul's investigation last?

Zhang Xu: He came here twice. The first time he came was when Falun Gong was hyping up the news, if I  am correct it`s probablly on 18 March. On 22 March, Mr. David Kombluth, the US consul, in the name of visitation, came to our hospital . I received him and showed him around, and it took about one hour. The second time he came was after our government had held the news conference. The American Consulate-General tried to seek help from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to investigate in our hospital. This investigation lasted five hours and it was a comprehensive interview. We introduced in detail the equipment in each part of our hospital and their functions, and we also explained particularly the medical treatment projects, including the operation and some original records.

Zimo: Did he find any abnormity in the process of investigation?

Zhang Xu: No.

Narrator: On April 12, 2006, the AP released news. The spokeswoman of the American Embassy in China announced that according to the current information they had collected, Sujiatun hospital was simply a hospital functionally.

Narrator: On March 31, 2006, a person whose name was signed in Epoch Times as a retired military surgeon of Shenyang military Rigion, said that Sujiatun hospital once detained more than 10,000 people in early 2005. He also said that in 2006 the daily detained people are 600 to 750 and many of them had been transferred to other concentration camps. He even described in detail that they were transferred by special trains and lorries, and it needed only one day to transfer 5,000 people. Sujiatun hospital is very close to a crossroad which leads to Shenyang-Haerbin expressway, so there are many vehicles coming and going. It is also next to Xuesong Road and Guihua Street and it's surrounded by bank, community school and stadium, there is no large empty space in the surroundings. Therefore, it is impossible to transfer so many people in such a busy area without being noticed. We are going to interview the nearby residents to see what happened.

Zimo: We just want to know did you see large number of strangers coming and going out of the hospital.

Residents: No.

Zimo: Never?

Residents: No, not at all. This hospital is very regular.

Zimo: Did you live around here in 2002 to 2003?

Residents: Yes. We have been here for 7 to 8 years.

Zimo: Did you see thousands of people coming and going out of the hospital?

Residents: Absolutely no.

A patient's relative: My parents-in-law had been in hospital since last year. We are scared by the scandal. I think it's impossible. It's a special hospital for treating cerebral thrombosis, then how can there exist organ business? Some even say there is a basement. It's ridiculous. Sheer nonsense.

Zimo: But the report indicated that all the patients had been transferred and the previous rooms disappeared just in one night ever since the news was revealed.

Zhang Xu: The report said that 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, along with the incinerator and other equipment were displaced just in one night. It's unbeleivable. Where could such a large number of people go? What's more important is what I told you just now, this is a busy residential area and transferring so many people, it could not be achieved without being noticed. That's why I'm sure that it's nothing but a rumor. Any sane person who has common sense and is capable of thinking normally would know that it's lying as long as he comes to visit the hospital just for once.  

Narrator: On June 1, 2007, Epoch Times spreaded rumor again. It said that Mr. King who was applying for Korea nationality disclosed that a surgeon named Yu Haishan of Sujiatun hospital was specialized in organ transplanting operation on Falun Gong practitioners. We came to the hospital and found the only doctor whose surname was Yu (Yu Sanjiang). Doctor Yu thought that the rumor was related with a consultation call he had answered when he was on duty in hospital in May 2007.

Zimo: On June 1 this year, some oversea websites released the news about Sujiatun hospital. They censured that a retired surgeon whose surname was Yu was hired to Sujiatun hospital and performed living organ transplanting operation on Falun Gong practitioners. I guess the Doctor Yu might mean you?

Yu Sanjiang (Surgeon of Liaoning Trombus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine): I answered a phone call in mid May(The caller is a woman). She said first that she was looking for Doctor Yu Haishan, a good surgeon retiring from Shenyang. I told her that she got the wrong person and I was Yu Sanjiang, not Yu Haishan, I had retired from General Hospital of Liaoning Province. She then said that she heard I could perform kidney transplanting operation. I denied and told her that was not my major.

Narrator: Yu Sanjiang is a surgeon of tumor, not capable of performing kidney transplanting operation, but the woman on the phone kept on the issue of kidney transplantation.

Zimo: Did you feel strange when you answered the phone?

Yu Sanjiang: Yes, I felt very strange. It was a woman who had southern accent, probably around 40 to 50 years old. She talked as if she was trying to sound out something.

Zimo: What did she say after you told her that you could not perform a kidney transplanting operation?

Yu Sanjiang: She kept on talking and said that she heard I could do it, and repeated several times how to cure uremia and mentioned kidney transplant. I hung up the phone and then stopped explaining anything.

Zimo: You have never performed any organ transplanting operation?

Yu Sanjiang: No, never. No doctors specialized in tumor could perform organ transplanting operation, especially for the doctors specialized in alimentary canal. As far as I know, there is no hospital is capable of performing kidney transplanting operation in the entire Sujiatun area.

Narrator: Since Doctor Yu cannot perform kidney transplanting operation, then who on earth was Mr. King declaring himself to be Doctor Yu's friend in Epoch Times website?

Zimo: Do you have a friend whose surname is King and is Korean nationality?

Yu Sanjiang: No, I haven't.

Zimo: Since the oversea report said that a man of Korean nationality, with his surname King, revealed in South Korea that he was your friend, and he suggested that you were specialized in organ transplanting operation in Sujiatun hospital.

Yu Sanjiang: No, I am not. I have been back to my hometown for more than five years and I contact more people of Han nationality for I myself am a Han nationality man.

Narrator: The only testimony of witness in the entire report was such a so-called lady Anne who declared herself the wife of a surgeon in Sujiatun hospital. Then who was lady Anne on earth?

Zimo: Along with the evidence of location of the accused hospital, the report provided a testimony of witness who is Lady Anne. She said that her ex-husband was a surgeon of Sujiatun hospital and he told her that he had removed cornea of 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners in two years, bring about great suffering to her family.

Zhang Xu: I want to say something about the so-called testimony of witness, Anne. First of all, there is no such a person in our hospital at all. Second, what she said was full of contradictions. She said that her husband was a brain surgeon, then how could he perform cornea removal operation? If you know a little about medicine you would know it's absolutely impossible. What's more, she said she was a staff member of this hospital, but it's not true.

Zimo: What Anne said is totally unreliable?

Zhang Xu: I can tell you honestly and I am responsible for what I am saying that not even a tiny word of what Anne said is true.

Narrator: After the rumors appearing in Minghui.org and Epoch Times websites, which said that Sujiatun hospital had detained secretly Falun Gong practitioners, removing their living organ and burning their corpses to eliminate the vestiges, on 31 March, 2006, the journalists of four Media including Japanese NHK and Hongkong`s "Public Daily" went to Sujiatun hospital for on-the-spot investigation and interview. On 12 April, the spokesman of Sujiatun hospital gave a news conference in Beijing and 12 Media, including Washington Post and AFP and so on, attended the conference.

Zhang Xu: Since we are not guilty of anything, we explain everything in detail in the interview and show them around in our hospital.

Zimo: Do you think there were any conscientious reports from oversea media?

Zhang Xu: I should say that all the 13 Media which attended the last news conference, including Reuters and Washington Post, have made the news reports objectively and veritably. That's also the reason why Falun Gong accused our hospital less and less since the last-year`s news conference, as whenever the truth came out, there was no room for deceit to exist.

Mao Qunan: Mentioning the report, the foreign journalists themselves didn't believe what it said. They paid more attention on the development of organ transplantation techniques in China and considered the report unreliable. Why? Because Sujiatun event led them to believe that it was Falun Gong organization that took advantage of medical development and fabricated such a story just for certain political motive.

Narrator: A large amount of the evidence in two Davids' report was actually quoted from telephone interviews pretended by the people they hired and it was said that hundreds of hospitals in China were interviewed. The report especially mentioned in detail the interview of Doctor Lu in Guangxi Nationality Hospital. It said that the doctor had admitted he once went to a prison to pick out healthy Falun Gong practitioners around 30 years-old to provide organs. So we came to Guangxi.

We came to Guangxi Nationality Hospital with the report. The hospital locates in a busy area of Nanning (the pronvicial capital) and it is a general hospital of Level Ⅲ Grade A, which is not capable of performing organ transplanting or removal operation. We found Doctor Lu in the consulting room of Urological Department. He is a physician-in-charge.

Lu Guoping (Doctor from Urological Department of Guangxi Nationality Hospital): In May 2006 when I was on duty in the hospital, I got a phone call from a woman who had northern accent and was about 50 years old. She said that one of her relatives suffered from uremia and it was very urgent. She wanted to receive kidney transplanting operation as soon as possible and asked if our hospital could do it. I clearly answered her question that we were not able to do the operation and suggested her going to Guangzhou organ transplanting center.

Narrator: Lu Guoping came to work in Guangxi Nationality Hospital in 1999. He was promoted to a physician in charge in 2004 and went to a superior hospital in Guangzhou to attend in a advanced studies in 2005.

Lu Guoping: She kept on asking me if the hospital used the Falun Gong practitioners' organs. I told her I didn't perform such kind of operation and had no idea of where the organ came from. She then asked if the organ came from some prison or something like that. I told her positively that it was impossible.

Narrator: Two Davids`report even described vividly that doctor Lu once suggested the woman to fetch organ from Guangzhou and told her it was easier to get organ there. He even said that he used to pick out healthy Falun Gong practitioners' organs in prison. Hearing this, Lu Guoping was astonished at these telephone record.

Lu Guoping: The content of the record was not what I said at that time, and a lot of things had been altered. There were two obvious problems. First, the report said that when I was asked if I previously fetched the organs of Falun Gong practitioners from prisons or detention houses, this report said my answer was from prison. But it was not my answer at all. I actually told her that neither our hospital nor I could transplant organs, so there was no need for us to fetch organ at all. Second, the report said that when the woman asked me if I had to pick up organs in prison by myself, I gave a positive answer. But the fact was no such a question had been mentioned. It was all faked.

Narrator: The report claimed that they had interviewed hundreds of hospitals on telephone, including investigator Mr.M's call to more than 80 hospitals and investigator Mr.N's call to almost 40 hospitals. The face-to-face interview with the persons concerned in both Sujiatun and Guangxi proved that such telephone records were by no means reliable.

Narrator: Based on a lot of so-called false telephone interviews, Davids' report drew a ridiculous conclusion. that conclusion was related to the abrupt number increase of organ transplanting operation in China in 1999 with the Falun Gong event in the same year, which inferred the increase organ suppliers were those Falun Gong practitioners. The conclusion was logically inaccurate, and the numbers which were the basics of the conclusion were also counterfeiting,  that came from Professor Shi Bingyi's words.

309 Hospital, also known as the Second Subsidiary Hospital of PLA General Hospital, possesses the organ transplanting center of PLA. Shi Bingyi is the director of the center, who is also the executive deputy director of  Organ Transplantation Sub-branch of the Chinese Medical Association. He is an authoritative expert in the organ transplantation field in China.

Zimo: Recently we read a report worked out by two independent Canadian investigators and it quoted your words. It said that 90000 organ transplanting operations had been done in China till 2005. During the years from 2000 to 2005, a period that they called after the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, 60000 had been done, which meant that there was a substantial increase in the number of operation cases. We are wondering if you said such words under any circumstances?

Shi Bingyi (Executive deputy director of Organ Transplantation Sub-branch of the Chinese Medical Association ): I didn't say that. You know why? Since I have never had such statistic data in my mind. I haven't done any particular survey, I haven`t these data concerning the number of operation cases in certain period of time, so it was impossible for me to say that.

Zimo: Though you haven't said the specific number of operation cases, but do you think these numbers from the report could be true?

Shi Bingyi: I don't think it`s true. I read from the report that they investigated in the name of patients' relatives, just calling hospitals and asking the person who answered the phone.

Zimo: After you read the report of independent investigation, have you ever clarified the statistic data quoted from you?

Shi Bingyi: Yes, I have. I am an armyman, so I have to protest through legal channel, with the help of the Medical Department of General Logistics Department PLA, I wrote a letter to the Ministry of State of Public Health to clarify that I have never said that words.

Zimo: Have you ever clarified the facts to any oversea media?

Shi Bingyi: Yes, I have. When I was interviewed by BBC on the phone I told them that I didn't say that.

Narrator: Shi Bingyi suggested that the numbers of organ transplantation operation had grown since the end of last century, but it had nothing to do with Falun Gong event.

Zimo: How should we understand that the numbers of organ transplantation operation in China grows so substantially?

Shi Bingyi: The increase is directly related to the fact that the medical science is developing and we now have more competent doctors, instead of having more organ supplier. In recent years, coming back from Pittsburgh and Britain, the Chinese visiting scholars set about organ transplantation work. So the organ transplantation techniques have developed a lot both in clinic application and scientific research, and it`s same for other countries in that period. Internationally speaking, up to now, it has been only half a century since the first case of operation of organ transplant in the world.

Zimo: How to solve the organ supplier problem if the amount of operation increases substantially?

Shi Bingyi: The lack of organ supplier cannot be settled. It will exist forever, not only in our country but also in other countries.

Zimo: The report also mentioned some other numbers. For example, it was said that some Chinese hospitals advertised in their official websites that the patients needed only two weeks for the organ supplier, whereas in other countries they normally need one year. How would you explain the difference?

Shi Bingyi: I can tell you that some patients of our hospital have been waiting for 3 to 4 years. The number of patients who have been waiting for more than 1 year is definitely more than 200.

Narrator: After Sujiatun hospital was indicted as Falun Gong concentration camp, organizations of different levels, such as the Ministry of Public Security and the Ministry of Public Health, separately carried out sudden checks to the hospitals, failing to discover anything abnormal and holding news conference to clarify the truth. Later, when the revised edition of Davids' report came out, the Ministry of Public Health investigated all the clues both secretly and openly again.

Zimo: Do we have any evidence to prove that such thing as transplanting living organ of Falun Gong practitioners had never happened in China?

Mao Qun'an: It reminds me of another rumor spreading abroad by Falun Gong organization when we prevented bird`s flu. We actually discovered a case of people infecting bird`s flu in Liaoning province, but they distorted it to scores of people dying of bird`s flu, even listing the specific name of each patient. Then we assisted the police to investigate, only finding out that the listed people either not existing at all or living healthily. Reading the report, we are thinking about if Falun Gong organization could offer a detailed name list as I mentioned above, we would immediately disclose their lie and bring the real facts to light. However, instead of giving any specific fact, the report only described such a large scale of living organ transplant cases. So we have no chance to disprove it directly. For example, if the report said something about certain person, we could find the person so that the person would speak out the truth to the public. But it's a pity that we failed to find out any such clue.

Zimo: In the process of regulating and administrating the organ transplantation, in your opinion, what improvements are urgently needed besides the medical technique itself in China?

Mao Qun'an: Organ transplantation is a new medical technique and it attracts much attention both in China and abroad. I have been interviewed many times on this topic. Some oversea Media and journalists kindly gave us opinions and suggestions on how to regulate the organ transplantation in our country. We think they were very objective. During the process of developing this technique, a lot of medical institutions and staff have participated in it. Since the technique is new and everybody is longing for contributing to its development, we need to regulate it. The two factors are not conflicted at all. But Falun Gong organization took advantage of this chance to fabricate such a ridiculous story. I believe when the oversea public get to know about the development of our society and medical science, the lie would collapse of itself.

Subtitle: On July 1, 2006, The Interim Regulations on Clinical Application Administration of Body Organ Transplant came into effect. On May 1, 2007, The Regulations on Body Organ Transplant came into effect.

Narrator: Reading the whole report we found that Davids' evidence could be reduced to three categories: first, the words of so-called testimony of witnesses, such as Anne and Shi Bingyi and the distorted telephone records; second, materials download from the Internet; third, illogical inferences containing certain vague words, such as "might", "should", "if" and so on. The example of the third category was that the two investigators inferred the living organ removal from Falun Gong practitioner should exit because human rights condition was not good in China, and they deduced that the hospitals were making profit by removing living organ from Falun Gong practitioners as the government reduced the fiscal appropriation for hospitals. But the on-the-spot investigations of Sujiatun hospital and Guangxi Nationaltiy Hospital, as well as the talk with Shi Bingyi all confirmed that not only the inference was illogical but also the premise of the inference was false. Therefore, no evidence of three categories was reliable or could bear close inspection.

Zimo: We have discovered from Internet that one of the investigators of the report, David Mattas who calls himself a human right lawyer, is Lai Changqing's counsel. The two Davids who have never been to mainland China were warmly welcome by Lv Xiulian in Taiwan. In addition, they exert their full strength to propagate the report in many international conferences and call for governments and athletes to resist 2008 Beijing Olympic Games. However, it's a pity that our on-the-spot investigation has found out that no fact is in accord with what the report said. Then why do the two Canadian Davids, one of them a well-paid lawyer and the other once a government officer, work out such a report full of mistakes? What is their motive?

(Phoenix TV, August 16, 2007)